premshree: What language should you be programming in?

Premshree Pillai (

premshree) wrote,
@ 2004-08-05 16:36:00

What language should you be programming in?
If you are one of those who learn programming languages only if they are “in demand” (I am not), you might want to take a look at Python. According to the TPC Index for August 2004, Python is one of the fastest growing programming languages. Also take a look at the 'Long term trends' (on the same page).

In other stuff, I am finding Ruby good. If you are new to the language, take a look at Yukihiro Matsumoto's (he's the author of Ruby) article “The Ruby Programming Language.” Not all of his arguments for Ruby may sound convincing. For example, he doesn't seem to like code structuring by indentation ... and I, for one, like that idea.

I guess he wrote a programming language that he would be comfortable with. Everybody should do that.

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	jackol 2004-08-05 04:17 am UTC (link)
	Everybody should do that. :)) Yes!! wanders off to design C-Blunt (Reply to this)(Thread)

	prema 2004-08-05 06:01 am UTC (link)
	or rather C-Flat. (as in Sharp/Flat of music theory) -(in the tone of King's I have a dream)- I think ppl should start writing languages that everybody, every machine, and every environment would be comfortable with. Rather than what they would be comfortable with. There's enough spaghetti in the system. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	premshree 2004-08-05 06:09 am UTC (link)
	I think ppl should start writing languages that everybody, every machine, and every environment... In that case everybody doesn't have to write a language. :-) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	prema 2004-08-05 06:12 am UTC (link)
	ah yeah. :) let me rephrase. I thinksomeone should start writing a language that everybody, every machine, and every environment would be comfortable with. ready set go. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mannu 2004-08-05 11:05 am UTC (link)
	I thinksomeone should start writing a language that everybody, every machine, and every environment would be comfortable with. Yes. It's binary. 0s and 1s. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

prema
2004-08-05 02:48 pm UTC (link)

binary is a number system. The lowest level, ie: 1GL is itself composed of binary strings. And at no level does binary fit the spec that it is a "language" that everybody is comfortable with. Most of us who have to deal with binary strings often choose to convert to hexadecimal. But it's not even a language. Morse code would fit the language peg, but not binary.

what i'm looking for - and this is clear when I state environment - is a 3.5GL.

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	code_martial 2004-08-05 10:33 pm UTC (link)
	Binary itself is not a language but it is an alphabet so it is possible to create a turing complete language using only binary symbols. Morse code doesn't make a language either. It too is just an alphabet. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

prema
2004-08-06 12:23 am UTC (link)

Pls excuse my pedantry on this subject:

A language is formally defined as a set of formation rules (ie: grammar, syntax) and an alphabet.

An alphabet is a finite set of symbols.
(ref)
---

Morse code is a system of representing letters, numbers and punctuation marks by means of a code signal sent intermittently. (ref). To say that Morse code is simply an alphabet ignores the protocol without which Morse code would be essentially useless. The provision of punctuation and syntax for its implementation, as well as translators and interpreters are enough to show that Morse code is not just an alphabet.

I agree that the binary system is not a language, (said so earlier). That it is an alphabet bears no relevance to the discussion, because we're talking about the existence of a common language, rather than the possibilities of implementing an alphabet (which is anyway what all 3GL+ programming languages today do - they are formed upon the machine code/assembly language, which is itself based on binary system).

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	code_martial 2004-08-06 03:01 am UTC (link)
	A language is formally defined as a set of formation rules (ie: grammar, syntax) and an alphabet. You missed out vocabulary. Without vocabulary you would end up with a meta-language (like XML). I don't know whether Morse Code has its own vocabulary. Is it all composed of words like SOS? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	prema 2004-08-06 03:15 am UTC (link)
	Well the vocabulary is built by the users of the language using the syntax, grammar and alphabet. There's a list of Morse code signals that are used by maritime services, but i think it got phased out in the 90s. So.. yeah, probably no one uses it anymore, except amateur radio enthusiasts? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	premshree 2004-08-06 04:03 am UTC (link)
	Well the vocabulary is built by the users ... Morse code, as it is, is not a language. It's yet another set of alphabets. If it were a language it would have vocabulary, grammar, etc. as y'all discussed. The Morse code only has more symbols than the binary system. Otherwise there is no difference. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	code_martial 2004-08-06 05:26 am UTC (link)
	It's yet another set of alphabets. Excuse me but there's a grammatical nit. You meant to say, "It's yet another alphabet." or, "It's yet another set of symbols/letters". I guess we all got it wrong in kindergarten. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	prema 2004-08-06 07:41 am UTC (link)
	i know i did - only realised fifteen years after kindergarten that english words were not made up of 26 alphabets.. kinda embarassing too. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	premshree 2004-08-08 01:55 am UTC (link)
	Yes, I meant to say yet another alphabet. My bad. (Reply to this)(Parent)

prema
2004-08-07 06:44 am UTC (link)

Morse code does have a sense of grammar and vocabulary - as well as a set of symbols (an alphabet). This post here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code pretty much explains what Morse code comprises of:

Examples of the need for syntactic rules in Morse (ie grammar) can be seen in the implementation of punctuation for Morse to be interpreted by a translator. This is not so with binary. In addition - there is a set of standard "words" that is used by radio broadcasters to transmit Morse, in addition to simply sending letters of the roman alphabet. (see here)

I think there's a pretty major difference between the two. Morse code is also widely described as a language - while the binary system is established as the base 2, radix-based numeric system.

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myrch
2004-08-07 11:02 am UTC (link)

I agree with you about binary, but your arguments for Morse code as a language don't make sense to me, a linguistics neophyte. Morse is used to represent an existing language, and so it doesn't make sense to me to call Morse code a language. I wouldn't even call it an alphabet -- nor would I call binary an alphabet. Both Morse and binary codes are like alphabet... for alphabets (and numbers). Each code provides us a way of representing an alphabet that already exists.

It just seems to me there's a reason we call them binary and Morse "codes" rather than binary and Morse "alphabets."

While I think you are right in pointing out that Morse code has some syntactic and grammatical idiosyncrasies -- used for clarity -- the same thing can be said for the use of "AIMisms" by 13-year-old girls, and I'm not prepared to call that a separate language unto itself. ;)

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premshree
2004-08-08 02:05 am UTC (link)

I have to agree with you. As

prema pointed out, according to Wikipedia (and all would agree with this):

Morse code is a system of representing letters, numbers and punctuation marks by means of a code signal sent intermittently....

In the above definition, there clearly is no explicit attribute to vocabulary, and vocabulary is decisive in calling it a “language.”

However, when used in a particular context (for example, radio broadcast), there are certain words built from the Morse alphabet and, here, it constitutes a language (if these words are the only words used).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

myrch
2004-08-08 06:50 am UTC (link)

But I would argue words aren't built from Morse code, bur rather, words are built from alphanumeric characters, which can be built from Morse code (or speech, or writing, or hand signs, etc.). This distinction is important. Virtually every Morse code signal is a literal transcription or loose transcription of words in another language, e.g., English. The few (VERY FEW) exceptions to this -- throat-clearing and E.O.T.-type Morse code signals -- cannot constitute words of a new language.

First, they are meaningless without content provided by a bona fide language. Second, there is an etymological reason for not calling these admittedly meaningful stragglers words of a new language. Doing so would considerably expand the definition of "language" in such a way that the variation would make the word near-meaningless. We'd have to dignify various Italian inflammatory gestures as words of a new language, the knocking on doors a word (or words) of a new language, etc.

Why not send the linguists a new word for the word stragglers you'd like to dignify? Such as: langulet or languito? ;)

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premshree
2004-08-10 01:31 am UTC (link)

I don't disagree with anything you said. However, I would like to make a couple of points:

First, they are meaningless without content provided by a bona fide language.
True. But, if you were to assign meanings to combinations of Morse codes, then wouldn't the vocabulary thus formed constitute a language?

Yes, it's true that you'd depend on another language (English, etc.) to interpret (or develop) meanings of (or for) Morse codes. This, I assume, is your pretext for dismissing vocabulary-added Morse code as a language. But, if you assume that these “words” mean something (actions, etc.), you don't require another language to interpret their meanings.

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sdaemon
2004-08-07 05:07 pm UTC (link)

I'll tell you what morse code is comprised of. One pain in my ass, followed up by a resounding headache after more than 30 or so minutes of copy. But damn, its a useful pain in the ass...

not even going to start ranting about visual copy instead of auditory...ugh.

Morse code makes the brain hurt. Until the brain gives in and becomes one with the code, and ceases to have to translate from code to natural language. Once the mapping becomes one-step, its as natural as hearing someone talk.

lemme see if I can dig out an old post of mine regarding morse code...pretty damn cool anecdotes.

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	sdaemon 2004-08-07 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	here it is: http://www.livejournal.com/users/sdaemon/234619.html (Reply to this)(Parent)

	athena92595 2004-08-07 08:23 am UTC (link)
	And at no level does binary fit the spec that it is a "language" that everybody is comfortable with. Couldn't agree more. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	sdaemon 2004-08-07 04:58 pm UTC (link)
	one machine's 0s and 1s are not every machine's 0s and 1s. byte-order, bit-order, hell, even the size of a byte varies from machine to machine. some machines don't even know bytes, can only address words... (Reply to this)(Parent)

hariputtar
2004-08-05 05:13 am UTC (link)

1. http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0055 - Bruce Eckel talks about Ruby too. Interestingly, according to Bruce Eckel, Ruby's author does not seem to *defend* his language as a serious *contender* at all. Bruce Eckel was primarily gunning Java down (and pretty much everything else but Python too).

<ramble mode>
2. thanks for the TCP link :-? Interestingly: i have professionally worked on all of top-6 languages. (VB too :O yeah! to my eternal bafflement. when i was employed with Mentor Graphics, hyd - for hooking into some vendor PCB tool for extracting netlist data, if i remember correctly - curious circumstances! php / Java - at the non-eda companies i worked with (2) . well, i do not use php/java actively anymore. though, i can still look at Java console in a browser and trace down stuff like - jre1.4.2 fries up policies with 1.7b mozilla [i have to use that to fill time-cards at my workplace. company gets tax rebates out of R&D time cards :)) the applet broke down when i switched from 1.6 to 1.7b ])
</ramble mode>

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	hariputtar 2004-08-05 05:15 am UTC (link)
	correction: (and pretty much everything else but Python too). ⇒ (and pretty much everything else but Python). (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mannu 2004-08-05 03:05 pm UTC (link)
	Pretty soon, I should be programming in ActionScript. ;) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	premshree 2004-08-06 04:04 am UTC (link)
	No. 41 on the list! :-) (Reply to this)(Parent)

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